Steemfest - A skeptics' view - The dangers of GROUPTHINK etc
Hi Steemians
I have decided to post this only here so as not to hang my dirty washing in 'public' (like to my Youtube subcribers)
I returned from Steemfest2 this week.
Firstly, the POSITIVES!
It was extremely well organised so big thanks to @roelandp for an amazing job done. The venues were superb, food delicious (although lots of dead animals were served) and the entertainment and accommodation was stunning as was the city too.
And then there were the people. Fascinating, engaging and most of them, outside the box. It felt like we were part of a community and we all want this to 'work' whatever that means.
The presentations were on the whole very encouraging and some even blew me away. The Hardfork trailer was amazing and the Steem Park project and Sndbox team have got some fabulous ideas. There are so many people bringing so many ideas and apps into the space including APPICS, DTUBE, DLIVE etc. And then there is the SMT project which I frankly do not really understand fully.
So I had a great time, met great people and even got a bit of sun. And felt that there might be a future in this venture.
But it left me with some BIG QUESTIONS.
I was attracted to Steemit by the anarchic philosophy and decentralisation. I liked the idea of being rewarded for my creations - something that facebook and to a great extent Youtube seem to take for themselves. But the money is secondary to the potential revolutionary side of Steemit.
I was recommended to read articles by Dan Larimer @dan and really liked his philosophy.
Yes I admit. I want a revolution of some sort. A revolution to me means turning the tables and prying away illegitimate power from the parasitic class and giving it back to the people.
It took me a year from the time I joined, to actually make an effort to try and figure out how it worked. I put a call out for help on Facebook and a follower of my work on Youtube @samstonehill contacted me and helped me a great deal with his tutorial videos and one-to-one help.
I still see myself as a beginner and have spent quite a few hours/days trying to figure out how best to play the game. And that is the way I choose to see it. As a virtual reality game. And I am playing as a creator, curator and a recent investor.
So here are my concerns.
Having been brought up in a religious home and in our society in general, I am acutely aware of the power of groupthink. The atmosphere at Steemfest felt to me like there was a positive slant and not enough desire for dissent.
I asked a couple of questions and was brushed off with both of them. So here are my questions.
As I said above, I want to be a part of changing the dynamic in our society from one where a few people hold most of the power. Yet Steemit still seems to have that sort of hierarchy going on. Although it can be argued that inequality is OK and perhaps natural to some extent, there seem to be very little concern about this form the people at the top!!
A French Steemian mentioned that Étienne de La Boétie,
a French philosopher, wrote FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO about voluntary servitude and how that seems to be part of the human condition. I feel to some extent, Steemit has created that kind of feel. We at the bottom end of Steem, are working our butts off, promoting steem at every corner, whilst @ned and many of the Whales, benefit from our efforts without supporting us.
So my first question is, is Steemit just another incarnation of the system just with different parasites sitting at the top with all the power?
I met Dan earlier this year and I could immediately feel a connection with him. He was obviously a genius but also humble. Unfortunately, I didn't get the same feeling meeting Ned. My conspiratorial voice has brought up many questions about him. I can't find any articles that say why he is involved with this project. He is the son of a finance professional and has never rebelled openly against his fathers' industry. And when he was asked at the fireside chat session about his 3.5 MILLION steem sitting in his account, all he could say was that he hoped they would be worth a lot more soon!
THAT WAS VERY REVEALING.
Is Ned in it just for the money? And if so, is that a concern?
Ned did delegate the 3.5 million steem (seemingly to random people) but he recently took it back as it was being abused. Why doesn't delegate it to those who promote steemit and help minnows get traction by putting his steem power out to tender?
At the opening talk he was going on about how this is going to be huge and how many users there are - up to 400,000 but that number is MEANINGLESS. I joined in 2016 but after one post, I didn't engage for a whole year. So why did Ned and others go on about that high number, when the useful number is 25,000 which is the number of active daily users. Thats not a small number but its around a TWENTIETH of the number they bandied around. And why do that? Thats the type of marketing bullshit I expect form a centralised platform.
Why does he not post himself on the site?
Although there are many great people on this platform, and some fantastic stuff is taking place including charity work, there are also plenty of rogues.
There are whales who have enough power to destroy the little man if they take a disliking to him/her. When I brought this up at fest, they dismissed it.
There was also an interesting conversation I had with @sneak who is the CTO. We got onto the topic of vaccinations and as soon as a steemian suggested that there may be a link between autism and vaccinations (based on his personal experience with parents who saw immediate decline in their children's health after vaccinations) he said he would downvote any such idea and walked away in disgust. Which makes me wonder what the values of the people at the top of steemit are holding by?
Then there is the decentralisation claim. Is it really decentralised? How does Steemit inc work in terms of power versus the witnesses?
Can the witnesses decide to fire Ned or any of the dev team?
If Facebook approached Ned and offered him 500 million dollars, what would happen if he accepted it?
What about the 70 MILLION steem sitting in the steemit inc account?
And the groupthink happy thing was disturbing because everyone wants to be on the right side of people so that they get upvoted and not downvoted!
A final side issue is that as an investor I just noticed something which i found discouraging. Dan Larimer has cashed in tens of thousands of steem recently. How can I recommend this as an investment when he is doing that?
I am sure there is a lot more to say, but I'll leave it there.
Looking forward to hearing your comments.
love and blessings
Danny
An ominous but important appraisal of our current situation. You are not the first to voice these concerns and whilst the question always reverberates around the community, bringing to the table so many different potential solutions... nothing seems to change. And your description of how these questions were met seems to tell us why.
One thing I will say is that thankfully there are many now who delegate SP. And sometimes it is delegated specifically to those who challenge the status quo. So while one 'big player' may not agree with the link between vaccines and autism, another will.
But in the end the real power is still in the hands of those few big players.
There is no decentralisation of power in steemit. A cursory inspection of the distribution of wealth or voting power displays that in big letters.
Some say that just reflects the real world. Concentration of power in steemit is mathematically worse than in the real world. In the real world there are a few checks and balances - just enough to ease the social conscience.
Steemit, where Feudalism meets The Terminator...
Hi there, I hear you on a lot of this stuff! We're actually forking Steemfest by bringing it to Acapulco just after Anarchapulco and we're decentralizing the concept, making it an open source build it yourself sort of affair. It's the incubator for the sort of dissent and revolution that leads to real positive change that I think we're looking for. If you're interested, here are the links to my Steemit fork post and the Anarchapulco Fork post as we're forking both conferences.
https://steemit.com/steemfest/@lily-da-vine/couldn-t-make-it-to-steemfest2-consider-our-steemfest-fork-in-acapulco
https://steemit.com/news/@lily-da-vine/anarchoforko-anarchapulco-fork-update-it-s-still-on-here-s-how-to-get-involved
We want the community involved to make this thing awesome and that means anyone from a minnow to a whale. If you've got value, you'll capture attention at our steemfest fork.
That’s a great idea.
We need people like you to get involved to make it awesome :)
Thank you for this candid assessment.
In a sense, you echo what many are feeling and perhaps not saying. I came here as a content creator, hoping to find something alternative to the soup that is Farcebook and the echochamber that is Medium and places like it... a place to create a variety of freethinking social content.
Things here are not as "shiny" as one might think. Steemit doesn't really seem like it has the bones to become an "Anarcho-Facebook." What I keep coming back to is that it often feels like we have a SOCIAL site being run by developers... who are mostly interested in creating apps and add-ons. But it takes PEOPLE to build communities.
And yes, there are some great people here. They just need to make their voices more authentically heard. Fearlessly.
steemit is like a see-saw. Social sitting on one end, techdevs on the other.
Every so often a few get together and pull down on the social end to try to get a balance. But then a new app pops up, or another bit of tech appears and everything slides back to the other end.
And if that doesn't work they can just move the pivot point...
Well, I am not planning to go anywhere... and like @stellabelle and others, I believe there's something here worth fighting for, even if it's going to be a lot of work. I also expect there might be a little more interest in the social end of things now that all the Bitcoin uncertainty is over and people are starting to look at alt coins again. I hate to say it, but people feel better about their chances of making a difference if the underlying currency is doing well.
When the steem rises, the kettle's boiled.
Everyone should make a nice cup of tea, and just keep blogging.
This platform were created for all the rich people who have invested. This is all for money and they are just using their so called missions and plans to cover and hide their desire. Steemit is not a charity, as I usually here from almost every whales in the platform, even those who become whales.
There are so many lies in this community. Like the common question why are we here? Majority would say that we are here for the connection and relationship we have with the community. And I say, it's shit, its a pure lie. Everybody is here for money and just made some false reason just to cover their greed for money.
Here, rich is becoming more richer and if somebody had just become rich in the platform it could be because they were lucky to join first and had gather a lot of rich (whale) friend. Majority of these who had become rich are those people who were with them at the early days of Steemit.
The platform is created to magnify the wealth of the rich exponentially. This is not created for everybody.
I would only believe that the platform is for everybody if there going to change some rule and giving everyone the same value in terms voting and not depending on someone stakes. Lots of people will argue with these because they will say that it would be unfair for the investors. You see, its for them.
Somebody would also say that its not possible to give everyone fair voting value because it will be an avenue for abuse. But what about the current system, isn't it abused already by those who has the authority?
Giving everyone equal voting value will surely make us all happy. But wait, somebody will say that if this system will be implemented lots of people will creating so many accounts and vote for themselves. Come on guys, I don't think its a problem at all. People who created the platform are genius and do you think they could not find a way to filter those people who will create many accounts. There is always a way to control it.
One thing, its a big thing in steemit that you need to find your way towards the eye of whales or to be close with them in order for a steemian to enjoy the platform. People in the trending page are the proof of that. They are receiving the glimmering votes of the whales every now and then. Its a good fortune to be a friend with the whales that can give you $200-$500 a day.
I am jealous? I don't think its only me. Lots of people around the community have this kind of feeling but prefer not to voice out because they are afraid that their account will be buried to oblivion.
I think what is perhaps more true is that there are two distinct "factions" on Steemit... the "tech-devs/crypto/blockchainiacs" and the "content creators." The former are more money oriented and the latter are still interested in rewards but experience them more as a "consequence" than the thing that leads them.
One of the things I think gets completely LOST in this debate is the number of people who come in here with some notion that they are "owed" practically making a living from posting on Steemit. This isn't anyone's job; Steemit isn't anyone's employer, in any sense of the word. All we have been offered here is an opportunityto be rewarded for content.
For comparison's sake, lots of people complain about how Facebook "uses" people to make huge amounts of money. That's actually not exactly true... yes, Facebook makes "billions of dollars" from its users, but it also has over two billion users, meaning that the average user is only "worth" about $20 a year to Facebook. Most people here make far more than $20 a year, so we're already far ahead of the alternative....
@dannyshine, i love the guts in this post. We all playing the nice one just to get favours. But lets cut all the nice crap. This platform is heading not far with the attitude of the whales.
I tell you something, they preach quality content and all of that stuff. The truth is no matter how good a minnow content is, he/she cant get what a whale gets. @ned writes 2 lines and all the whales are out there giving votes in hundred of dollars. Seeking to be on his good sidem
The question is if @ned was a minnow, will he get the attention he gets. So lets face the fact, steemit is a cabal and only the powerful get it big. Only a few are willing to help.
I think it is high time minnow show how much effect they have on this platform.
Am glad i stumble on this post, i really really like your guts and appreciate it. Lets see a whale to come downvote this post.
Great work here Danny, an honest and fair assessment.
I missed the fireside chat and had similar questions to ask Ned regarding the delegation - I need to see this chat.
Agreed that there are some good and bad folks here, I just sincerely hope the good will out.
As you know, I'm keen on a chunk of delegated SP, mainly because I think I can use it wisely, and prove I'm doing so. 3 million can be surely divided more effectly than by 6!
Good to meet you at SF
Asher
Amazing investigative work Danny, upped and resteemed simply because we cannot pretend this system is for everybody, will make you hundreds of dollars a day or even ever, it is evident that the world doesn't make everything fair.
However, we are at the start of what could possibly be the revolution you spoke of, you cannot simply slander it completely.
I respect you taking your own time to research this! I definitely wouldn't want anyone involved at the top of Steemit to be related to any bankers!
I see you powered down yesterday, hope you put it into another crypto. I disrespect fiat!
Anyways, enjoy the rest of your time here Danny because we will miss you 😪.
I am not going yet. Just remaining openly skeptical. Still feeling lots of love for lots of people here.
Great Danny, glad you will still be here, I was inspired by this post and decided to do a bit of my own Blockchain Slander.
Hope Steemit will chage or the new, better system arrives!!!
Have a good afternoon Danny and always stay skeptic, it's the only way to spot the propaganda before it consumes us!
Thank you for posing this question to the community, we respect you for it 👊.
Thank you for this honest review. I had an absolute wonderful time at Steemfest, and honestly I don't judge how much money Ned has in his account and what he uses it for. I do think however, you raised lots of valid questions, and I'm always open for a new perspective and take my rose colored glassed off.
The thing that disturbs me most is that conversation with Sneak about the vaccinations. That story actually reached me before I read it here in your post. It's highly upsetting to learn that team members of the actual Steemit crew will downvote content in which people express their beliefs.
I think downvoting should only be used in very rare cases when someone actually harms others with their content. But if we start judging people for expressing their beliefs, then how is this platform any improvement to what we're seeing in the world out there??
I would have thought the Steemit crew created this platform so that people could express their views freely and be themselves, without any censorship. This incident makes me wonder if this was only Dan's vision, though.
Hm. I hope it was just a one-off, maybe even a misunderstanding, and Sneaks attitude doesn't represent the one of the rest of the team.
The thing with the vaccination issue is that spreading stories about vaccinations causing autism puts childrens' lives at risk. The science is clear on this. So it's not really right to portray that as "[downvoting] content in which people express their beliefs". It's nowhere near that trivial.
The science is clear on this sounds religious. There are scientists who disagree with That.
Sure, but science works by consensus. That some disagree doesn't invalidate the broader consensus. And sciences is in no way religious. It's the antithesis of religion.
In my opinion for some science has become the new religion. And it has its heretics. I like the heretics. Like Rupert sheldrake and Tom Campbell.
I am a huge fan of Sheldrake, and been following his heretical stuff on morphogenetics for years. When he wrote about the delusion of scientists, I realised he was absolutely correct....science has become the new inquisition. My little girl has never had any vaccinations at all, and I will always defend our right to choose. When someone takes that away, telling me its heretical I want to come out fighting.
Honest answer is, I don't know whether I'm right or wrong on this issue, but I'd rather trust natures plan than one made in a laboratory for profit. So from that point of view it's right for ME and my (now separated) wife.
Danny, your ballsy approach is refreshing. It's been great to connect with you via the promo-steem group we are both part of. I've been talking a lot with some of our mutual friends recently about the problems with the Steemit platform, and I for one feel that the way to deal with it is to shout out our truth. Not everyones truth is the same. And we're in the wild west. I don't particularly want to get shot down for saying it. This platform should be able to deal with dissent, because that's how we grow as a community.
I thank you, @dannyshine, and those who have replied for the insights you give. As a 2 month old newbie on Steemit, I recognized almost immediately the 'groupthink' you mentioned. And as an old geezer with many years behind him, I also remember where I saw and heard that attitude before...
Back in the 70's and 80's, an American company called Amway spent a lot of time and money recruiting huge numbers of people with the promise that if they just sold enough soap or whatever, that they would be rich. The reality was far different, however. After alienating all of your friends and relatives by trying to get them involved, then buying hundreds of dollars worth of laundry soap, marketing materials and motivational tapes (these were the cassette tape days!), most of these thousands of hopeful people came to realize that the only ones who were getting rich were those at the top. Nowadays they operate under a different name. But they left a lot of hurt and angry people in their wake.
I see some of that same thing here with the whales vs minnows. Your experiences with those in upper positions just reinforces that in my mind. I still wish to be a part of Steemit, because I believe in the dream. But like many of you, I will dream with my eyes open and one hand on the door.
The Amway analogy is interesting. Amway was selling a product, the Amway product. Here, I would say that what is being sold are authors and not the Steemit platform. So, I highly doubt that Steemit will end up like Amway. Where does the concern about whales destroying minows come from? Who was arbitrarily and unfairly destroyed by a capricious whale?
I didn't mean that I thought Steemit would become like Amway... only the similar idea of many people at the bottom helping to make people at the top rich at their expense. Steemit also has a product: the posts of many talented people as well as the promise of payment. As for the whale vs minnow reference, that was from various posts by other Steemit people that I have read over the last couple months. Just an observation, I guess. Not meant to offend.
Yea, the question about the concern regarding minows being capriciously destroyed by whales was meant to @dannyshine .
I don't think that a promise of payment is the product which Steemit sells. I think the promise of payment is for the product that they want: the interesting articles people have to offerto their platform. IMO, the only thing Steemit has is the show room or platform and the automated systems available to curators and authors.
My question is who is really concerned that Steemit succeeds at preventing people from earning their fare share of cash on this platform? What is Ned's fare share? He is the first to find a way not to take 100% advantage of the public by giving a share back. What is stopping anyone from starting another kind of Steem on a new site owned by a coop or something non-profit ?