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It's not true. Indigenous civilizations warred constantly and brutally.

If you ask your circle of acquaintance if they would like to go to war, my guess is none would say yes, correct? Same with people I know. Nobody that I know wants war. I believe 99% don't want war, except for the people that profit from war.

I only want war when there is a threat to the country or its people. It's not a default position, it's a judgement based on the situation. Each situation is different. Sometimes war is warranted, sometimes it's not.

I agree. With all of the technology and various ways that we all have to communicate, it seems that war should ne easy to avoid. But it's not, because war is a profitable business.

The taking of non-violent individuals' lives in the name of a collective is always morally illegitimate.

@lostinsauce Did indigenous people fly airplanes and use smartphones to do complex mathematics instantaneously?

The point is that humans are not innately good. I think that's quite obvious.

That's a claim. Your argument is that because some indigenous peoples had wars that people are naturally "bad"?

No that's not his claim. He's just dispelling the idea that indigenous people, people without "sin" supposedly are always moral and upstanding. They were savage for the most part: enslaving one another, killing out of spite, warring constantly, etc.

Humans are innately bad because they're innately wild. Raise a child and anyone can tell.

Humans are innately bad because they're innately wild. Raise a child and anyone can tell.

I am raising a child. He has never been "innately bad."

Then why do you have to teach them to be good? If humans were innately good, you wouldn't have to teach them to say thank you or be gracious, they'd have natural gratitude. Humans are naturally self interested, we have to be taught to care about others.

Self-interest =/= "bad." Everything you do, including being grateful, is because it is what you want to do.

I didn't have to teach my son to "be good." He is good, and I am his guide here for now to help him.

You are an AnCap?

No, just that they're not naturally good. I don't see just good or bad, but in between, neutral.

They're definitely naturally warlike, because war arose from nature. That doesn't make them bad, it just means that they saw some reason to fight and kill each other.

What is your definition of "nature," out of curiosity, and do you believe that the taking of innocent/non-violent life is always wrong?

I regard nature as the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

Since war occurs among non-human species, it's natural by my definition.

And no, the taking of innocent lives is not wrong to me if it saves vastly more innocent lives than it costs.

And no, the taking of innocent lives is not wrong to me if it saves vastly more innocent lives than it costs.

I'm sure you'll be the first to volunteer when the time comes, then, to sacrifice your life for a hypothetical "greater good."

Wait a minute. No, you won't. You'll vote for the others to go first. Pathetic.