2 Thought Experiments to Forever change the way you Look at the World + Philosophy Discussion

in #philosophy7 years ago

The average person using STEEM is far wiser and more sensible than the average person/zombie/sheep you meet on the streets. So I wouldn't be surprised if some of you have already thought of this. I developed this thought experiment while I was around 9th grade or something. Most elements in this thought experiment are adjustable. So you can customize your own version while I'm explaining i to you.

We need two children. They can be twin (even identical twins) if you want. They have to be really young or you could do this while the kid is still in the womb. The visible spectrum is the portion of the electromagnetic spectrum that is visible to the human eye. A typical human eye will respond to wavelengths from about 390nm to 700nm. In terms of frequency, this corresponds to a band in the vicinity of 430THz–770THz. You take one kid and do some mechanical or biological tampering to make 390nm waves be received as 700nm waves and 700nm waves to be received as 390nm waves. You could replace the eyes of one child or use a nano-machine to hijack the optic nerve or something else. The method doesn't matter. What matters is this:

In an environment where nobody is aware of such tampering, is there any way to notice a difference between the two kids? If you are feeling clever - What if you used some advance enough technology to make the tampering undetectable? (well, I fixed it for you) Both kids would point to a certain electromagnetic wavelength and call it "Blue" and call another wavelength "Red". But one kid's "Red" is the other one's "Blue". There is no way for anybody within this environment to know what these are cognizing. Both kids would live perfectly normal lives.


Just Think about this for a moment. Think about using a similar kind of experiment on other sensory organs. If these organs were stealthily tampered with, there would be no means of knowing even when 2 people are perceiving things inverted compared to each other. Now what if these two hold subjective views on beauty or physical comfort. Are you now looking at subjective valuations in a different light? I'm not trying to explain the origin of subjective values. I'm simply trying to make you think.

Animals see, hear and feel differently from humans. But what about humans themselves?

Let's get to the next though experiment to further illustrate my point. For this I'm going to ask you to simulate being a blind person. Just for few minutes, live like blind person. Some lazy people may only do this for a few seconds. It's not much of a problem. I want you to describe the difference between the two kinds of sensory perception. How does your senses feel while you are blind and while you are not blind?

You are bound to come to a statement like "everything is so black" or "everything is so dark". But you know "Black"ness or "Dark"ness only because you've seen other colors. You are making a relative statement. A person who has been born without functioning eyes would say everything is dark or black, but that's because of what the society of non-blind people have told this blind person. What if we hijack the optic nerve of a very young person (or just go straight for an unborn child in a womb) and feed the two optic nerves the signal of any random wavelength constantly. In this scenario the child would grow up to describe the "Dark"ness or the "Black"ness but he/she could be actually seeing any random color in the visible spectrum.

Now I'm going to quote few paragraphs from an interview with Thakurartha Devadithya Guardiyawasam Lindamulage Nalin Kumara de Silva (short name Nalin de Silva) introduced and developed the concept of "Constructive Relativism"

Q: What is the difference between classical physics and
quantum physics?
A:The question needs some explanation on western science. Knowledge is created within a certain culture which can be termed as Chintana to which there is no effective translation but which is inclusive of certain attitudes, philosophy and epistology. At the end of the 15th Century in Europe a new chintana was formulated with the pioneering activities of the artists of that era such as Micheal Angelo and Leornado da Vinci which can be termed as the Greek Judaic Christian (GJC) chintana. There were a number of characteristics of this and the statue of David created by Micheal Angelo in Florence, Italy symbolizes this. Galileo and Martin Luther King were those who were born into this existing chintana of which one main characteristic was abstraction as compared to the more concrete sensory chintana of the Catholic Church.
For instance, Galileo said that it was the earth that was moving around the earth rather than the popular belief that it was the sun that moved around the earth. This is something that one cannot sense through one’s sensory perception as a person cannot actually feel the earth moving. It was the same with Newton who said that the apple falls to the ground due to gravitation and similarly we cannot feel gravitation. So these were all only stories with no proof. Later Einstein tried to prove Newton’s theory through his relativity theory. Generally all scientists, when they want to prove a point, first observe and then conduct experiments. Because they cannot experiment with the whole world they take only a sample from the population and then try to fit their findings from the sample to the whole world assuming that the world is represented in their sample which often is not. Then they do various tests to test the significance and then report their findings quoting probabilities which are not actual proof. Of course in classical physics a sample may represent the population very much more than in biological sciences, but still they are all stories which are very abstract. Even Adam Smith the scientist was very abstract in his work, which was very different to the catholic culture before the 15th Century.

Q: How would you explain western science?
A: In the West science uses induction and there are no deductions even though you have been told that we deduce answers after experimenting. For instance, if A = B = C, we would deduce that A = C. But how do we actually know that A = C and that in some part of the universe it would not be so? For instance take synergism that is being taught in universities. It says, Socrates is a man, all men are mortal, therefore Socrates is mortal. But how do we know that all men are mortal? When we say that all men are mortal we have already assumed that Socrates is mortal so it is really induction. Even Aristolean logic is induction and all classical physics is based on the GJC principle that I explained earlier.

Q: How does quantum physics differ?
A: Quantum physics deal with very very tiny particles or electrons that cannot be observed. In fact the electron is only a concept, which so far has not been observed and the only observation is of its tracts. Therefore we connect these paths and say that this is the path of the electron, even though no one has even observed its travel. This was actually based on Young’s experiment where he showed that when a ray of light moves through one slit and then another, the waves intercept each other which can either enhance or destruct the waves. In quantum physics if there are two slits we don’t know through which slit the particle travels. But now all scientists have been convinced that the particle or electron travel through both slits simultaneously.
This cannot be explained using the GJC chintananya, as according to the GJC, a particle at one point cannot be at another point at the very same time and this is the crux of the problem. Aristotle didn’t know anything about this and he inducted that one particle should be at one point at one time such as if A = B, A cannot be equal to B, on which GJC chintanaya is based. Quantum physics is something that cannot be inducted. Our experience is generally with day to day things, such as this chair which is here cannot be at another place at the very same time. I cannot walk through two doors at the same time, but a particle or an electron can, as it is everywhere at the same time.

So where am I going with all of this? Am I saying the reality is just an illusion etc etc??? That would be too cliche. I'm making a point on human communication and in an even broader sense, the knowledge of human kind itself. I won't you to think alongside these lines. Think about why we call certain tings by certain names. Think about how we communicate. Why do we have to always assume that the other person is seeing/experiencing the exact same thing? What if not just eyes but every sensory organ was stealthily tampered with?....... We'd be naming things with the exact same name while experiencing radically different things.



I'd also like to reccomend Jeremy Lent who seems to converge with Nalin de Silva at certain topics (according to Nalin de Silva himself) He has released a book named The Patterning Instinct and here is the website: https://www.jeremylent.com/table-of-contents.html

The Patterning Instinct provides a new answer to this question with a simple but compelling theme: Culture shapes values, and those values shape history. So even if Zheng had discovered America, the Chinese would never have conquered the New World because they were driven by a fundamentally different set of motivations from European explorers.


Hopefully I made you look at the world in a different light through my work here. Always seek the roots of all things. Always ask "why" at every chance you get. Simple questions and ideas can give you an entirely new perspective on the world. I can't make you realize things. My mind is mine and Your mind is Yours. But I can show Where to look.

Now my question is: What do you see?

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Hey there, I believe I have something valuable to add to this conversation.

The implications of your first thought experiment about light really tend towards the subject of language. We describe adjectives through their sensory form, which is cyclic as you've stated. When asked to describe the color purple, we can't. The best we can do is point to something purple and say, "this is what purple is". Because of this "flaw" in our language, we cannot fully communicate all of our thoughts some times. But this isn't only the case for sight perception. How can you explain sour to someone with no taste buds? How can you explain fuzzy to someone with no nerves? We can't.

In regards to the light question you posed, vsauce offers a valuable discussion titled Is Your Red The Same as My Red?

Philosophically, the "answer" to this is that we live in an empirical world. We derive knowledge from sensory experience, and these are foundational to what we know, which why we cannot explain them, but it simply must be. They are the "building blocks", if you will. You can read more about empiricism here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

I would also like to contribute to your discussion of de Silva. I would like to note that I primarily study logic and have only lightly touched epistemology, so I will try to note push my claims too far.

Anyways, it is bold to say that Western science does not deduce, but only induce. You should note that many western philosophers were empiricists. They ground facts in the world around them. Again, this is the case in all sciences, including physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, etc. If I were to quote you, knowing that "a typical human eye will respond to wavelengths from about 390nm to 700nm" is also empirical. We consider this a fact because that is how the world around us operates. It is possible to argue that empiricism is not the way to go. However, it is extremely practical. I know if I touch a fire, I will get burnt, although that may not be the case in a different world.

Returning to de Silva, yes, the fact "all men are mortals" is induced, but that is how the world around us works. However, the move to "Socrates is mortal" is deductive. We take the facts around us and make rational decisions and choices based on those as we know them. de Silva is discarding this entire notion. Thus we can ground our thoughts in logic.

Thanks for the dicussion, and I hope you can take a look at my philosophy blog or follow me @syllogism

I agree with your first part. As for the empirical I have to say I come from the Buddhist/Relational Quantum Mechanics/Zero world/Quantum Darwinism side. Basically I deny the existence of classical systems. This video should summarize most of my own views:


The problem I have with an empirical world where we derive knowledge from sensory experience is that the existence of an empirical world has not been proven. There is only proof that we perceive something. Whether it's Schrödinger's cat or Double-slit experiment the people who call for a multiverse tend to believe that all possibilities exist. Zero world theorists like me say that none of the possiblities has objective existence, reality takes place at the moment of of observation; not before or after. Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect

Nalin De Silva's constructive relativism is more like a better and sophisticated version of instrumentalism

Instrumentalism is a view in philosophy of science that claims scientific theories are merely useful tools for predicting phenomena instead of true or approximately true descriptions of the physical world.
Duhem claimed that physics could be and should be done independently of deep metaphysical assumptions. Instead, the aim of physical theory is to develop mathematical laws that predict phenomenological laws with as much precision, completeness, and simplicity as possible. In Duhem’s words:

A physical theory is not an explanation; it is a system of mathematical propositions whose aim is to represent as simply, as completely, and as exactly as possible a whole group of experimental laws

I don't subscribe to later versions of instrumentalism and things such as Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. But I'm all for practical uses. Newton's Theory of Gravity was a bunch of BS. The same goes for many of his life's work. But they can be useful in everyday life.

Bitcoin is a stupid, slow expensive crypto. But even that has many uses. I just refuse to accept that Bitcoin is the real deal.

Nobody has proven that the reality exist when it's not observed. Existence of an objective reality is in stark contrast to quantum mechanical facts.

Interesting, reminds me of a very famous experiment involving some cats.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7174898/

"For this work, the duo divided a pack of kittens into two cohorts, the horizontal group and the vertical group. As you can probably guess, the vertical group was raised in a world consisting entirely of vertical lines: the wallpaper inside their cages was black-and-white stripes running floor to ceiling, and the people handling and feeding them wore either solid colors or vertical stripes as well. As a result, these cats saw nothing but vertical lines for the first several weeks of their lives. Meanwhile, other cats were raised in cages lined with (and handled by people wearing exclusively) horizontal stripes, and this group never saw vertical lines.
The results was startling. Cats raised in one environment were blind—literally blind—to any lines running the “other” way. Cats raised in a horizontal world, for instance, could see the seats of chairs just fine and would jump up onto them to nap. But they couldn’t see the chair’s legs at all and were constantly banging into them. The vertical-world cats had the opposite problem. They weaved around the chair legs like champs but could never find a cozy spot to snooze.
These experiments provided some of the first and best evidence for the existence of “critical windows” in brain development. The basic idea is that the brain, which is plastic when young, must be exposed to certain sights early in life or it will remain blind to those sights forever."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-food/201404/the-cat-nobel-prize-part-ii

Take it for what you will.

Thanks a lot for the info. I think pretty much the same can be said about PC-SJW safe spaces and parents and teachers creating entitled snowflakes. These kids are going to destroy the society they inhibit. It's like letting a poor sighted person driving the bus. It's bound to crash.

One must learn all aspects and choose the right path. Anything else is a house of cards. Thanks for stopping by. 100% upvoted.

This is an informative and deep post leaving me much to think about. I have lived in a culture that spoke a different language of which I only picked up enough to "get by" in daily life but I learned that they handled things such as anger, along with many other things, in a different way. I benefited much from seeing things in another context due to my experience in another culture that spoke a different language.

The biggest thing is that learning another language isn't a process of translating. There are many words that cannot be even properly translated. My Japanese is pretty terrible. But by watching tons of anime I've picked up many things that I find to be pretty intuitive but feel unable to translate to another language.

Eg: Kawai or Moe doesn't really mean cute.
Otaku isn't some word for nerd.
Kami is a word used for God but omnipotence isn't taken seriously within the Japanese culture (although they love the Bible...... but kind of like the way people love Lord of the Rings)

And I'm just coming from the anime sub-culture.

You surely remember more of the Japanese language than I do. My remembrance is just a phrase or word here and there.

Interesting stuff. Nice take on the classic 'inverted spectrum' thought experiments.
I think the critique of deduction and the syllogism could be clearer though. It's not induction in one sense - if Socrates is a man, and if all men are mortal, then it must be true that Socrates is mortal.

But once you put all those 'ifs' in there, it starts to look less useful. And you are right to question things that are true by definition. For example, triangles having internal angles adding up to 180 degrees - true by definition, right? And true everywhere, right? Well not exactly. If space isn't flat, as it's assumed in euclidean geometry, then maybe triangles don't have to have that quality.

Worse, definitions of words are made up of words - and these words require definitions. Where does that chain of definition end? That's a conversation for another day.

In the case of the triangle, The triangle is a concept. There are no triangles in the observable physical universe. A triangle is a 2D object. 2D cannot exist in a 3D world. If there is a "Triangle" that doesn't have its internal angles adding up to 180 degrees, then it's not a 2D object.

Where does that chain of definition end?

It doesn't end. It's not even just linear progression. It'll be both a web and something that's like a web. Word's should be used like the way a person use a raft to cross a river. You use it and you leave it. It's like cryptocurrency. The value lies in the function it serve. No need to cling to words beyond the use of communication.

Thanks for stopping by to comment.

It doesn't end.

LOL, I wrote my PhD thesis on that - and actually came to a similar conclusion. The language/crypto parallel is't lost on me either.

Generally all scientists, when they want to prove a point, first observe and then conduct experiments. Because they cannot experiment with the whole world they take only a sample from the population and then try to fit their findings from the sample to the whole world assuming that the world is represented in their sample which often is not.

I would like to add that the laboratory conditions under which science operates often do not exist in daily human lives. I refer in particular to pharmaceutical anti-depressant medicine. The treatment plan in which one has to take the pills must be followed in its exact way but often that is not the case, for people reject pills very often and think that if they take the pills, it is proven that something is wrong with them. People don't like to think of themselves as to be wrong.

Your screen experiment with trying out blindness does not go far enough, I would say - the idea is great!

It reminded me on a visit years ago here in Hamburg. They set up a room in total darkness and called it "Dialogue in the Dark" - I went there with a bunch of people and we were led through the darkness by an actual blind person which directed us through the space. It was less frightening than I would have assumed. We were put under different sensory circumstances like traffic, crossing an intersection, visiting a market, where we were asked to touch the food and tell what we were holding in our hands and so on and so forth. What I experienced was, that I wanted to be in physical touch with others and that too much noise was no good as not enough sounds also was not good. Losing eye sight I would say after this experience gets really bad in isolation and I deduce from that (LOL) this counts also for losing the ability to hear. Though the loss of smelling would not be the same feeling of disconnection, I think. That is my subjective perspective and that is the only one which counts, no?

Modern people for the most part use their eye sense along with their mind sense. That is also the reason why language offers all kinds of synonyms for seeing but less for hearing and smelling. Look, view, perspective, see, watch, watch out, spot, glimpse, glance, picture, lens, etc. - but what do we have for smell and touch and hear?

The search for the smallest particle may - among other things - lead to side findings which we may benefit or not from - as always there are more than two sides to a thing. As I also think that we are long arrived at concepts, I do not have anything to add.

Great topic!

But as you know me a little, I am missing experiences of yours from your physical existence.

I must also add that each person's body is different. For an example some people with high metabolism never seems to get fat despite their eating habits (as long as they are not eating junk food all the time). When it comes to personal opinions, things get even more complicated. You can get an average of people's opinions. But their utility is very limited. You can compare some conformist/SJW with another but when it comes to more creative free spirited people, psychology stats become progressively useless.

You have had some great life experiences. Based on the ease of use we have built our lives to depend on certain senses more. People depend more on a smart phone than a $5000 gaming rig or a $9000 laptop. Using visual information is easier. So we tend to depend on them more. This could become a double edged sword. If people don't pay enough attention to tone and other auditory cues, they are asking to get crushed and deceived.

As for the smallest particle - I don't think exist; not as a thing. It'll exist only as a function. What we experience as particles is a collapse of a wave function. In fact There has been zero evidence about the existence of electron. Just like Newton's gravity, it's a story made up to describe a phenomenon. Nobody has observed an electron.

You can compare some conformist/SJW with another but when it comes to more creative free spirited people, psychology stats become progressively useless.

I would think, that is true. In particular when the one who is treated as a patient or a as a person with short comings does not think so. Statistics might be "right" and show a tendency or a probability and nevertheless people reject them. It has nothing to do with logic or a rational mind.

I do that, too. Where I do hesitate, dislike, reject, no statistic in the world can convince me of something I don't want to believe.

Yes, I am on earth for quite a while, now:) and I am glad that I had so many opportunities to experience a great spectrum of being in touch with a variety of things and people.

As for the smallest particle - I don't think exist; not as a thing.

Smile. That is what I often think. That it is a concept. As concepts can be very very strong they become reality and are treated as truth. Science in some parts is beyond observation but involved with "correlation", right?

Thanks, nice write-up, this one got me thinking

I like to wonder if people are seeing things the same way. I feel like recently I've been releasing some tension, either mental or physical, that has been off from normal, almost numbed out. Getting over those kinds of things change the way I perceive things, so I wonder how we all vary or change our perception of the world.

Our minds/existence are like a river. They are never the same but they have a certain sense of consistency. Not only we each could be perceiving things radically different. We could very well be perceiving things radically different from a past version of our own selves. It's still us.... but kind of not really - Like a river.

I was born into a family of poverty, taken away and lived in a conservative Christian upper middle class family, given back after my mom remarried and lived in lower part of the middle class. Through out my life I have never fit in anywhere, never married, an odd ball of sorts I guess, a non conformist. You article really lent some light upon why that may actually be.

Stuff happens and differences exist. Nothing is a problem as long as it doesn't violate the Non-Aggression principle. I'm very much of an odd ball too. If everyone and everything was similar, then there wouldn't be anything awesome in the world. That's why designer jewelry and clothes are super expensive. They have a certain unique worth.

But the defects are also unique and screwed up. What you need to make sure is to become a good oddball instead of a bad one. Good Luck and Happy steeming!

....not to worry to much sir, no matter what psyche one is addressing rest assured that a claim one never acquired the taste for coffee, that propelling call of proper social etiquette, is to blame works astonishingly well.

To make a very short answer, this sounds very much to the (probably very western) problem of "when a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around, does it make noise?". Have a look at it on wikipedia.

Being very scientific minded, I would assume that makes very little difference between the twins, as "I" am the only reference for any measurement, so each twin can assume what s-he sees as "the truth". But that is only my opinion

Well, although it’s the hub of the nervous system and the ultimate terminus of every nerve, the brain itself lacks enervation and therefore cannot feel pain. As a result, once neurosurgeons dull the scalp with novacaine (or something equivalent) and fold the skin back, the patient feels no discomfort. (This is doubly strange since pain, no matter where it originates, is largely a mental phenomenon anyway. You can see this fact clearly with phantom limbs (link is external), which often ache or cramp up despite the lack of any actual flesh to feel the hurt.) So that’s one answer to why patients stay awake during neurosurgery: they’re unlikely to buck with pain, and if you can avoid the potential complications of putting someone under, you might as well.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-food/201405/the-beneficial-mischief-neurosurgery

Perception is a mental process. It's just can be based on physical things. When the tree falls, there are the properties for a noise to be noticed but without a perceiver there is no noise. It's a Schrödinger's cat event.

Thats a lot of information.
If I think deeply about all that you mentioned in this post I might end up crazy lool.
I see life becomes easier for every human on earth and Love spread among nations and countries and individuals become more wise to care about it each other more and take care of our planet and solve the problems that threaten environment and nature and everyone living on earth.. But I see this a bit far from now
Keep It up

I became addicted to the from your articles. I see - ENERGY. Good luck to you and Good.

Походу я стал зависимым от ваших статей. Я вижу, то, что и Вы – энергию. Удачи Вам и Добра.

Glad to make a good impact.
Good luck to you too!

Truly deep post,gave me a new perspective and something to think about