RE: An infidel reading the Quran #3
Hi,
Let me quote an Islamic scholar Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allah have mercy on him)
“The level of fear that is praiseworthy and appropriate is that which prevents a person from transgressing the sacred limits of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted; if the fear passes that limit, there is the risk that it will led to despair and despondency.”
I’m not a scholar, nor am I a student. My knowledge of religion is not much, but I will try to explain based on what I know.
Fear in Allah, is fear in committing sins, doing bad and fear in disobeying him. We don’t fear Him like kids fear Freddy Krueger from Elm Street or like one fears his enemy. It’s not fear that result in hating and hiding, but it is fear that results in love and finding. And the fact that there is a clear description about punishment, is justice. One can’t have excuse that he didn’t know, we got all the information we need and the choice is in our hands.
Of course, there are people that commit good deeds and are not Muslims. And not all people that call themselves Muslim are Muslims. It is not just a label you can put on and remove whenever you want. And when someone commit crime, it doesn’t matter what his religion his, all pay equally and when one commits good, his good deed will not be lost. To come back to your question, why can’t you be good while not believing in Allah. The answer is simple. For example, let’s take a murderer. So, you have one crazy dude that kills people, but he commits a lot of good deeds, like caring for animals, helping homeless children. Will you consider him good? Of course not, you will want him to be jailed or killed and you will never forgive him for what he did. I think we can agree that killing is a big sin. As Muslims, we believe that the biggest sin is disbelief in Allah. You can do a lot of good deeds and it will help the community, but by disbelieving in Allah you harm yourself.
What if the person is a muslim who kills a lot of people (in the name of 'Allah') but still does good deeds?
For killing innocent people there is death penalty, regardless how many good deeds you commit.
@doetwa In Islam, there are very strict rules for killing and even for waging war, there are certain rule-set which have to be followed. In short, you cannot kill any innocent human being which is not in directly engaged in war with you, unlike in battlefield. So any person who does this is clearly violating all the rules set by Islam and this act should not be associated with Islam.
Maybe you have heard about that verse of Quran
"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."(Quran,Chapter 5, Verse 32)
@doetwa @needofhour @nime Please comment the name of the person you are responding to, just to avoid confusion :) Thanks for your comments.
What about the verse that speaks of the rock that cries out to the muslim to kill the christian or jew that is hiding behind it? Why are there so many muslim terrorists that are killing innocent people? What is "innocent" according to islam? Is a person who chooses not to believe in allah still innocent? Or are only other muslim innocent people?
@doetwa Definition of innocent is same as found in dictionary, if you are not involved in direct warfare then you are innocent. You cannot claim that every major world religion don't have black sheeps, there are no 100% good Muslims, Christians or Jews etc and as i have said earlier Islam is against innocent killings whether Muslim or not.
It is a general logical rule that whenever something is quoted from any book or religious scripture, it should be according to context and that stone reference you gave is scenario of war
You question is going in another direction but i don't want to ruin post of Epsicktick because he is discussing another point in this post. Maybe you can yourself post about it and i would love to answer
I agree fully that there are no 100% good people in any segment of society. However the number of those in islam appears to me to be quite high when compared to any other segment of society. You cannot deny the constant and persistent rate of suicide bombings, knife attacks and rapes perpetrated by people of muslim faith. When I look at people from the jewish, christian, hindu, sikh, new age, mormon faiths, I do not see the same violence. Why is that?
@doetwa but you would have noticed have in those parts of world where Muslims are in minority, their rights are violated to highest level. Its a fact that in recent mas shootings in USA for 2016-17 more people were killed by 'White extremist' but it still does not prove that all Christians are like this, there are more good Christians in USA i believe.
So, my point is wrong thing is not justifiable, all things you mentioned rape, terror, horror etc , it is not essence of Islam, actually against it
That is not true. In the UK, the rights of the muslim population are not being suppressed, to the contrary. There are still many terrorist attacks perpetrated by muslims in the UK - just look at this year alone. Also look at France, Belgium, and Sweden. All these countries do their best to appease their muslim population yet they experience increased lawlessness, rape, violent attacks and murder. When you consider countries like Poland and Hungary, you see no such attacks. Why is that?
@doetwa How you can believe mainstream media?
I have would also given examples in the very beginning of our conversation like why attack Paletine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Myanmmar, Kashmir etc but that is not going to solve any problem.
This would be my last reply to you on someone else's post. I suggest you kindly post about it yourself...
Hey @nime thanks for your comment. My example was not about a non muslim committing murder. It was someone who in all accounts lived a "perfect life" in the eyes of the Quran unknowingly, but without belief. How is that more evil, than a believer who murders, rapes or tortures? Cause you said it yourself, the biggest sin is disbelief in Allah, which in turn means the worst muslim, is still better than the best "non-muslim". To me, that is nuts. It's not logical.. And i must say, the whole idea of sending people to burn for eternity is not an act I deem justifiable in any way, no matter the crime committed, and i'm pretty sure a lot of others agree with me on that one. Wich in fact makes us more merciful. In that logic, Allah can not send non believers, murderers or rapers to burn for eternity, cause he is most merciful, or "more merciful" than all of us.. Would that not make the limits Allah set, (and the punishment) a fiction of imagination to put fear in the hearts of humans who without the guidance of the Quran would commit many evil acts?
And just to quote Surah 2 Verse 178:
Surah 2 Al-BAQARAH THE HEIFER
178: O ye who belive! The law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: The free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude; This is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty
Do you think it's justice that i get to kill your sister, if you have killed mine? I don't believe it is, I believe it is in all accounts.. murder.
@epsicktick I understand you are slowing progressing in this reading Quran, so you will find that Allah has mentioned his mercy empowers his anger.
Please don't mind but I think you are interpreting this verse Surah 2, Verse 178 wrong, this verse in context say that suppose if i have killed your brother, then your family can demand my death(killer only).
@epsicktick regarding your opinion about belief and good character. I know you are a great critical thinker and you would agree that everyone person has the ability to differentiate between good & bad deeds, similarly right & wrong path. Even if someone was living in jungle alone for his whole life and leading good life with his family, he would also someday realize that what is the purpose of all this creation, how everything came into order, so by being logically following your mind, i think everyone eventually stumbles upon the truth. So belief concept starts very later. First you have to find the ultimate truth by exploring things deeper
By the way why you always call yourself infidel?
I highly doubt that a raper can be at the same time a believer. Of course in his own eyes he can be one, but you are not a Muslim just by saying you're a Muslim. Dying in the state of Islam, while being a Muslim is not easy. There are rules to follow. You can't just write Muslim on your forehead and run around doing crazy stuff. So you can't compare a rapist to the worst Muslim. And I highly doubt that someone can live a perfect life according the Quran and remain a disbeliever. Let's take for example a son that ignores his mother for no reason, like she never existed, but he is good to other random people. Can this person be good? He is unjust to someone who gave him birth and raised him. What are his good deeds worth after all. So, when you believe in God, you also believe that He is Creator of everything. Every single cell in your body. You can see, hear, feel, think, enjoy and all because of Him. Do you feel how unjust one is by disbelieving in Him?
@needofhour Yes, maybe I do interpret it wrong, cause to me it seems if i kill a woman, the woman's family can demand the killing of a woman in my family to punish me. Even though i'm the killer, i'm a man, hence not a woman for a woman / man for a man. A man living in the jungle would live a pretty neutral life in my opinion, not necessarily good. For me the purpose of life is pretty simple actually. Evolution threw reproduction. This is the only thing that accounts for all life on earth, either you survive long enough to reproduce (therefor being a part of the future evolution). Or you die before, still in a way doing your part. This gives all life meaning, and gives me a lot of freedom to choose what I want my life and legacy to be about. Of course this was a short version, I want to make a post on the meaning of life eventually. But tell me, what is the ultimate truth to you?
Yeah, maybe his mercy empowers his anger. But that does not make it justifiable, that makes it closer to revenge. Which again makes Allah less merciful than let's say Scandinavian states who does not practise death penalty or torture (which eternal fire is), and focus on rehabilitation instead. Which in my thinking can only mean he is less merciful and many good people and I will go to hell, or he is most merciful and we will go to paradise regardless.
I do wonder though, do animals go to paradise? Is it a sin for muslims to kill animals unnecessarily?
Infidel: "a person who has no religion or whose religion is not that of the majority"
I do not have a religion, I don't believe in god. I believe we created god(s) in our image, not the other way around. I believe religion has served a purpose, to create order and unity among groups of people which in turn has made it easier/or possible for societies and civilizations to evolve.
Other than that, i find the title catchy :)
@nime I do not doubt that at all.
You have probably heard about the amount of child molestures among priests in the catholic church. It does not make them unbelievers. It just means they have committed a sin. And I understand you doubt someone living perfectly without faith, but in theory what if someone did?
No, to be quite frank. I don't find it that unjust. Sure it's nice to be appreciated for your deeds, but to me, it's not a contract. If i help someone, they don't have an obligation to return it and I won't hold it against them. Put in perspective: Allah made everything that I am, but that does not mean i'm obligated to believe and submit to him. And it would not be justifiable for Allah to punish me for it. And I certainly don't see how it can be the greatest sin of all.
@epsicktick The picture you gave of life is pretty obvious, that is too mechanical life according to me, Like you grow up, study, do job, pay bills, have relationships and die. This cycle has been going on for very long time. Yes, you can lead a good in this minimized scenario too but it’s too limited and normal. I believe there should be something special in everyone’s life.
Yes, unjust killing of animals is prohibited.
I think Darwin’s theory is flawed logically and it is still a theory but I like you analysis of this religious book and I think your first question should be why it is said that Quran is a word of God?
You should kindly read about scientific facts and signs in this book, like big bang theory, black hole etc. Non-religious historians confirm that this book predates back 1400. So 1400 years back there was no major scientific evolution like today, so how can there be verified scientific facts mentioned in this book and how?
And yes your catchy title attracted me towards your post :)
To me its not mechanical at all, and has nothing to do with how you live either :) It is in some ways simple, but it aswell gives us alot of freedom. I find evolution very fluid in every way. not just technological or biological, but in other subjects such as religion, politics and ideologies aswell. Not to mention that by that by this meaning everyhting you do that brings the world forward in a sense, is a good act. I will look into what you said about black holes, but you can find other unaswered questions in other religions and cultures aswell. For example stonehenge, egyptain pyramids, mayan buildings/and understanding of the universe. I am pretty sure the mayans had drawings of black wholes, and we have no clue how they managed to build with such perfection. And the mayans build it long before the Quran was ever written.
You said his mercy empowers his anger. Not that he has more mercy than anger.
@epsicktick Empower His anger means he is more merciful than being angry.
Yes, there are unexplained things mentioned in many old civilizations but only some remains true or justifiable. Like you would have witness that in 2012 there was common misconception that world is going to end on 2012 according to Mayan calendar.
So till now, i have only find this thing in Islam, that whenever its talks of something in terms of physical world, it has not been proven wrong.
No it does not. It means his mercy "power up" his anger. So thats why I got confused. But anyways.
When it comes to the end of the world.. The mayans calender ended.. Why it became a "thing" that the world would end i dont know. If you go to Yuacatan, and are lucky enough to visit chitzen itza and tulum, you would understand what im talking about. As my guide told me "We have no clue how they managed to build it, absolutely no clue. We would not be able to do it today". I dont know what you mean with "true or justifiable", but if you have only found it in Islam, then maybe you have to expand your search ;).
Im gonna end the conversation on this post now, thanks alot for your comments, gave me some interesting perspective! I hope I see you in the comment section on my next post on chapter 4 in a couple of days :)
You are always welcome and looking forward to all your posts :)